Space to Lead
The Space to Lead podcast is all about recognizing, developing, and nurturing the leader within us all. Here, we dive into conversations that explore what it means to take the lead in our personal and professional lives. Whether you're just beginning to see yourself as a leader, you're a seasoned leader navigating challenges, or you're somewhere in between - wanting to create change in the world - you're in the right place.
From effective communication and strong boundaries to driving change and unshakable self-trust, Space to Lead offers valuable insights for anyone looking to lead differently.
With over a decade of experience in the social sector, spanning from Scotland to Aotearoa (New Zealand), I’ve led social change, managed teams, and empowered all kinds of people to lead from within. Join us and nurture the roots of your leadership.
Video version available over on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@spacetolead/podcasts
Space to Lead
//003 Neil Meekin: Lineage to Leadership - Turning Family Patterns into Purpose
[Video version available on Youtube]
In this dynamic and deeply human conversation, I sit down with Neil Meekin - Liverpool born, Wirral based and soon to be Queenstown local again - to uncover how his journey from council-estate child and army cadet to global Family and Systemic Constellations facilitator fuels his mission to spark profound change. He’s championing a surge of transformation by helping entrepreneurs, social enterprises and community leaders surface hidden patterns, set courageous boundaries and reclaim their unshakeable leadership for the good of their families, their teams and their worlds.
We explore
🧭 Family and Systemic Constellations as a mirror to surface hidden beliefs, values and family lineage blocks
🧭 The power of mirroring questions to help you self recognize your innate leadership qualities
🧭 How presence, as a felt state not just a concept, creates trust, psychological safety and influence
🧭 Shifting from the "me" to the "we" through co-leadership and indigenous organizing principles
🧭 Re-indigenising our leadership by walking ancestral lands and reclaiming Celtic wisdom
Key Takeaways
⚡ True leadership lives in your boundaries, learn to say no without guilt and watch your leverage skyrocket
⚡ You cannot change what you cannot see, use constellations or trusted mirrors to unveil the roots of your insecurities
⚡ Presence is your superpower, cultivate the felt sense of being fully here and everything around you steadies
⚡ Leadership scales when it shifts from ego to eco, move from lone wolf to collaborative brain trust and spark systemic impact
⚡ Reclaim your ancestral wisdom and you reclaim your sovereignty, step onto your elders pathways and let your leadership blossom
“Set the lever where you get the most change, start with your boundaries and watch the world rearrange itself.” – Neil Meekin
📌 Find Neil here
@neilmeekin.com_pooloflife on Instagram and Facebook
Have a listen, subscribe and share with a friend to grow this movement of one conversation at a time leadership. Reach out to @gemmarosepeacock on socials to let me know which moment lit you up.
👉 Join the Space to Lead community 👈
On Substack for more nourishing tools and community all rooted in your unique leadership
https://gemmarosepeacock.substack.com/
#UnshakableLeaders #RealPeopleLeadingRealChange
Gemma
(0:03)
Well, kia ora Neil, welcome to the Space to Lead podcast, it's great to have you here.
Neil
(0:09)
Kia ora Gemma, nice to be connected back to New Zealand, Aotearoa, and to be chatting to you in what will be your morning and my evening, eight o'clock here.
Gemma
(0:18)
Yes, yes, so can you start us off by introducing yourself to the listeners, who you are, where in the world do you call home and anything that lights you up at the moment?
Neil
(0:32)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
(0:33)
So I am Neil Meakin, and I am based in a part of the UK called Merseyside.
(0:41)
I'm originally from a city called Liverpool, which is quite famous here in England, but I've just moved over the other side of the River Mersey to a place called the Wirral.
(0:50)
So I'm now based here, so I can look back on the city where I was born.
(0:54)
But I spent seven years in New Zealand, and that's where obviously I got connected to you.
(0:59)
When I lived in Queenstown, back in there, that's going back four years ago now.
(1:06)
Oh, yeah, it's good to be connected again.
(1:08)
But yeah, what am I up to?
(1:12)
So what's lighting me up at the moment?
(1:14)
So I am really excited by the constellations work that I'm doing at the moment, because there's a real surge towards seeking change and transformation for individuals, and it's grown and grown, and people are sort of, say, waking up to a bit of a bit of a bit of a cliche, but it's because of what's happened in the world, people want to change.
(1:38)
And it's getting me really excited.
Gemma
(1:40)
Yeah, I can see that.
(1:41)
I can see that in your eyes.
(1:43)
So for anyone who doesn't know what Family Constellation is, do you want to just tell us a bit more about that?
Neil
(1:50)
Yeah, so Family Constellations, it's almost a disservice to put family at the beginning, so we'll call it Family and Systemic Constellations.
(1:59)
So it's a it's a it's a method and a way of being able to bring into conscious awareness, patterns, beliefs, values, and any unconscious processes that are beyond the story that we tell ourselves.
(2:14)
And through constellations, we can create a conscious awareness of those and a mirror them back to us, because there's a saying you can't change what you can't see.
(2:25)
And so it's a really profound and powerful process of change and transformation as an individual, but you can use it in families, hence Family Constellations.
(2:33)
Its origins come from a German psychotherapist called Bert Hellinger, who worked with families, which evolved and can be applied in business.
(2:42)
So I've done it, I've done it with startups, I've done it with social enterprises, you can do with teams around like culture and diagnosis and culture, if there's like, if a culture is not quite right within a company, and so it's used in community organisations and social settings.
(2:58)
And it's also being used in repairing and for peace.
(3:04)
So for creating peace where there's been conflict, you know, with say, different towns or cities or communities through war.
(3:10)
So it's got multiple applications, very powerful work.
Gemma
(3:13)
Yeah, wow.
(3:14)
Wow, that's incredible.
(3:16)
So would you say this is your mission at the moment?
(3:20)
Is this the impact that you're leading?
Neil
(3:25)
It is.
(3:25)
It's a way of facilitating change and transformation.
(3:31)
So it's, it's definitely part of my toolkit.
(3:34)
But it's definitely, it's definitely at the forefront of me leading change using these tools, for sure.
(3:41)
Because of the results that I get.
(3:43)
It's just, it's profound.
(3:45)
Yeah.
Gemma
(3:45)
Yeah.
(3:46)
Wow.
(3:47)
Okay, cool.
(3:48)
And so let's talk a bit about your journey to leadership, what that really means for you.
(3:57)
And and what that looked like.
(3:59)
Can you tell us a bit about that?
Neil
(4:02)
Yeah, it's a, it's an ongoing process.
(4:06)
And that is continually evolving.
(4:08)
But I'd argue like,
(4:10)
when I reflected on the question, when you sent the question before this session,
(4:15)
is that when I look back, even to a child, like, sort of 9, 10, 11 years old,
(4:22)
I was given a lot of freedom in the council estate that I grew up in, or the social housing estate,
(4:29)
and there was leadership qualities whenever I was black, I was very self reliant, independent,
(4:36)
and be at the forefront of like initiatives that would be happening even in school,
(4:41)
secondary school, a little bit more.
(4:43)
And then I was in like army cadets.
Gemma
(4:45)
Oh, yeah.
Neil
(4:46)
And like, at the age of 1415, I was teaching all the kids like certain skills like that, yeah, that would be used in life.
(4:54)
So it's so it's there.
(4:56)
And then as I've gone through my corporate career, and I've naturally just found myself in leadership positions, because I feel like I'm wired towards creating change, like I've just been so much change in my life that it's almost like I'm when I've reflected on it.
(5:13)
I'm naturally drawn to that.
(5:15)
But not everybody is.
(5:17)
So I am a leader from that perspective, if that makes sense.
(5:20)
And all the roles I've found myself in, typically, I've been of that nature.
(5:27)
But so it's almost like being leading by and by having a team, but also leading by example.
(5:34)
Yeah.
(5:35)
And change.
(5:36)
Yeah.
Gemma
(5:36)
Yeah, I totally hear you on that.
(5:38)
And would you say at the time of going through those different changes that you knew that your leadership was in action?
(5:47)
Like, were you connected to your leadership in those moments early on?
(5:52)
Did you know that you were a leader?
(5:54)
Because I'm thinking of some of the listeners who, you know, might have similar backgrounds and have similar circumstances where they've led change in their lives, but not seen it through the lens of their own leadership.
(6:10)
So I'm just wondering if that came up for you, if you knew?
Neil
(6:16)
When I was when I was younger, younger, no, I used I was just doing it, you know, you didn't really have the awareness or the language to say, Okay, well, I'm a leader.
(6:23)
But then when I went to army cadets, like for a while, I went into army cadets when I was 30.
(6:30)
And I was there until I was 17.
(6:32)
It became very clear, and I was given feedback, okay, you got natural leadership ability here, people naturally gravitate towards you and people trust you.
(6:41)
And so I was able then to give a framing of leadership, but not just in context, I could see where it was, it was ripping out into other areas of my life.
(6:52)
And like army cadets, like I go back, like it's that was a life that was that set the foundation, the skills and the teaching that you got at that age.
(7:01)
Like it's, it's, yeah, it's really powerful.
Gemma
(7:04)
Yeah, yeah.
(7:07)
Because it's a funny thing, leadership, isn't it?
(7:09)
Like, in what way?
(7:13)
Just some of the connotations that come along with it is like, so the whole concept of the
(7:21)
unshakeable leader, which you are number three, in the unshakeable leader series is making leadership
(7:30)
more accessible to people in thinking that we are reclaiming what leadership really means,
(7:39)
because my big thing on it is that leadership existed within each of us long before any
(7:45)
boardroom existed long before any corporate was built, you know.
(7:51)
So what would you say to someone who's, you know, going through lots of changes in their life, or has been through lots of change in their life, and isn't quite connected to themselves as a leader, and the innate leadership within?
Neil
(8:09)
Yeah, great question.
(8:11)
So one of the first things that I've got to do, and I have done this before,
(8:15)
so it's a really useful example that you've offered some detail for is, is I'd be reflecting back to
(8:22)
them through certain types of questions, for them to be able to see themselves in a metaphorical
(8:31)
mirror, and reinforcing back to them about certain aspects that I wouldn't call it leadership,
(8:36)
but I would sort of almost get them to, let me change the language, I would facilitate them
(8:42)
through them having an internal yes to what I'm offering as a mirror.
(8:45)
And then to the point where, okay, you've shared this with me, these are classic characteristics of being a leader.
(8:53)
So they've talked themselves into through just a reflective process, because I've only got a subjective perception of them.
(9:01)
So by using their own information to really good question, and you can mirror that back to them, and it's empowering, because then I can see myself, and I can identify myself that because, okay, popular culture recognise these qualities as a leader.
(9:16)
So if that's how I do it, and that's how I've done it before.
(9:19)
So it's just mirroring, you know, mirroring.
Gemma
(9:22)
Yeah.
(9:23)
And I like that.
(9:25)
Yeah.
Neil
(9:26)
Great questions and mirroring.
Gemma
(9:28)
Mm hmm.
(9:29)
Yeah, because as you say, that's we can go around telling people anything about themselves, but by getting them to go through their own internal process about it, it's more likely to have that aha moment, they're more likely to have that to have that moment stick.
(9:49)
And that realisation be clear.
Neil
(9:54)
Yeah, 100%.
(9:55)
And I just build on that a little bit, because people have an internal model of who they are.
(10:03)
And if they don't internally identify as a leader, and you say to them, Oh, no, you're definitely a leader.
(10:08)
Like, look, you're doing this, you're doing this, you're doing this.
(10:11)
But if they're, if they're, if they're internal references, I'm not a leader, don't even know what that is.
(10:16)
Yeah, tell them to do in the face.
(10:18)
And they're gonna be like, No, no, no, they're gonna do the heels in and resist what you're saying.
(10:21)
That's why the other way around is more powerful.
(10:25)
So it's influencing with integrity.
Gemma
(10:27)
Yeah, yeah.
(10:28)
And how did you get into this work at the work that you're doing at the moment with the family constellations?
Neil
(10:36)
Yeah, it's been it's been a long journey that started on 47 now, Gemma.
(10:40)
And I could say it really started when I was 27, where there was a window open after a really difficult breakup in a relationship, where I started to see patterns.
(10:50)
So I started to see my family as a system and seeing these patterns going back into generationally.
(10:54)
And over the years, I've realised that these patterns that were in my family system, have held me back somewhere being able to be in my full expression of who I am, on my leadership, and that manifested like insecurity, or like ego, or addictions or various kinds of things.
(11:12)
And so I got to a point in 2021, where when I fully got an opportunity to engage with the work when I moved back from New Zealand, because of family reasons to the UK, I started to get exposed to the work of constellations.
(11:28)
And very quickly, it just like it opened up what we call it widened the lens of what was possible and how I can see myself.
(11:37)
And my leadership really blossomed for me able to sort of see myself through constellations work.
(11:45)
And because it does is it shows you your own truth, but then it through the constellations process, it allows you to see more truth and allow more in and with that you become more resourced and you can see a lot more because we go through life like this based on how we've been conditions and how we've been taught and how we've been educated.
(12:06)
But then the constellations work allows you to go like this and see more.
(12:10)
And then you can sort of see more leadership qualities come through because you trust them and you can see them.
(12:15)
That makes sense.
Gemma
(12:16)
Yeah, it really does.
(12:17)
And what I'm thinking about what came to mind just now is about how sometimes we can go through life with those things holding us back, whatever it is, but we make it purely about us.
(12:35)
And sometimes, as you said, it's about, well, where does that thing that's holding us back show up in our family lineage?
(12:46)
It doesn't just start with us.
(12:55)
So, when you said patterns, I'm like, well, what could be those patterns that are showing up for people, those barriers that are within themselves, but also could be changed by family constellations work?
(13:11)
Have you got examples of those?
Neil
(13:14)
I mean, it's confidential work, but I could give you a sort of example.
(13:19)
So, a big one that I see a lot.
(13:22)
So, part of my wider consultancy work, I work a lot with entrepreneurs and those entrepreneurs might have a tech company or they might have a social enterprise.
(13:33)
Most of my work now is with people who are doing social or facilitating social and environmental change.
(13:41)
And so, I'm exposed to these people, especially with who I would call them more activists rather than just building like an app for pets or something like that.
(13:50)
These are people who are really seeking change in the world.
(13:53)
Now, what I'm seeing a pattern of is that these people who step into these positions are coming from a wounded place, especially men, where they have got a difficult relationship with the father.
(14:08)
And the father might have been, say, when they were growing up, the father might have been absent physically.
(14:13)
He might have left or they might have been there physically, but emotionally unavailable and not supportive for the young man.
(14:20)
Or he might have been violent or controlling of the child who then becomes a man.
(14:26)
So, when he gets to be an adult, I've got to be careful not to swear, obviously, or use any profanities on the podcast, but it's almost like F you to the father.
(14:36)
I won't give the fingers.
(14:37)
And it's like a rejection of the father and almost like competitive, but almost like an exclusion of, like, I don't need you and I want to show you.
(14:47)
But what that means is there's a motivation and there's been some great changes in entrepreneurs and change makers that have come from this place, but it's not balanced.
(14:57)
And so, there's blind spots where they might have, say, people who they're leading, that they're operating from, like, a wounded place where they can't see certain things and they'll push beyond the limits because they're so driven that they burn out.
(15:13)
They suffer from mental health, get depressed, burn out prevalent.
(15:19)
They just don't know where to start.
(15:20)
There's no off switch.
(15:21)
And so, in terms of self-awareness and leadership in that respect, it's dangerous because then you're also in a position of authority.
(15:28)
And so, there's a lineage, there's a linkage, a correlation to that wound with the father.
(15:33)
Does that make sense?
Gemma
(15:34)
Yeah.
(15:35)
No, it really does.
(15:36)
And it makes me think of the change that could be done within the work that you do as well in terms of those things that show up in leadership, like burnout, like micromanaging, you know, all those, all the things that show up in ineffective leadership, how they could be solved by going into some of the work that you do.
(16:04)
Yeah.
Neil
(16:04)
Yeah, 100%.
(16:06)
Because one of the things that I learned about myself, especially as a leader, and I'd see it show up quite subtly in some of my leadership roles, there was one particular role that I had in New Zealand where I was an innovation manager.
(16:19)
Like, I was managing a programme for the government.
(16:22)
And I was noticing my need to control certain aspects, and I was seeing it in other programme managers on the programme itself, a need to control the environment.
(16:37)
And it's very subtle micromanaging, and it boils down to insecurity, and feeling threatened by others.
(16:47)
And there was a culture of that within the teams where you could see it.
(16:50)
So culture plays a part in environment, but I could trace that back to like, the need to feel safe, and in control through insecurity.
(17:00)
So it's very much ego based, do you know what I mean?
(17:03)
So it was like, it's one of the things Constellation was able for me to bring an awareness to and change, because you can't change what you can't see, Gemma, do you know what I mean?
Gemma
(17:11)
That's how it would show up.
Neil
(17:13)
So like, so I've been able to move through that and realise, okay, first of all, why am I trying to control?
(17:22)
Life is a mirror, Gemma, so you can orientate yourself to you as a leader, through other people's behaviour, because you recognise that how you feel and how you respond to them is about you, not about them.
(17:34)
So life is constantly mirroring you, back at you.
(17:37)
You can approach it in that way.
(17:41)
You don't need a coach or a mentor, you do, they do help, they do really help.
(17:45)
But you can see when you're with that frame, you can change things from what's going on around you, you know, with that awareness, because you feel something's right, go on Gemma.
Gemma
(17:56)
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
(17:58)
And I was just going to say that it actually, it strengthens your own ability to be your own coach, guide, mentor, guru, whatever you want to call it, you know.
(18:15)
As much as I agree that not everyone needs to have a coach or mentor all the time, but you know, how do we strengthen those skill sets within people to be able to lead from a personal leadership perspective, you know, and it sounds like this is one of them.
(18:34)
And I love how you touched on the parts of yourself that have had to grow and evolve, like noticing the micromanaging and need for control in the work environment.
(18:49)
Has there been anything else that you've had to, or noticed about your own leadership, personal or professional that has had to grow and evolve?
Neil
(19:02)
Great question.
(19:06)
I always felt that after a certain point, that I was a great listener.
(19:17)
And I was able to hold space and listen to people, especially as a leader.
(19:25)
But it wasn't as good as what I thought it was.
(19:29)
And what I was able to recognise and cultivate more so through certain practises was presence.
(19:38)
Now, when you say presence, okay, you can understand it conceptually with the mind, but presence for me is a feeling and it's a state.
(19:48)
And when you're present for someone, that other person can feel it, and it creates trust, and it creates safety.
(19:58)
Because when you're sitting in front of someone and say, I've got like a coach, like going back a couple of steps, I really advocate coaches and mentors, they're really, really important.
(20:07)
So I don't want to say that not that, they're really, really important.
(20:10)
And I've got them and I've had them, they're really important.
(20:13)
There are other ways you can do it, but that enhances, obviously you can do it yourself.
(20:18)
But like when you're someone, either a coach, a mentor, a teacher, a friend, a partner, and a manager, if they're fully present with you, everything just sort of becomes really solid.
(20:34)
Your awareness develops, even if you're not the one who's present, it cultivates and nurtures presence within you.
(20:39)
And for you to be fully heard and to be fully seen.
(20:42)
That's a really powerful thing when a leader is holding that space for you.
(20:46)
Because I experienced it very rarely, except in fleeting moments with certain people.
(20:51)
And I really felt the change.
(20:53)
So I made it my objective to become more present.
(20:57)
And it has, it has just almost like a ripple effect out to people around you.
(21:02)
It's really potent.
(21:04)
And you don't even have to speak.
(21:05)
Yeah, the less you talk the better.
Gemma
(21:08)
Yeah, I agree.
(21:09)
And that presence can be absolutely profound in leadership roles where that presence is felt unconditionally, warts and all, you know.
Neil
(21:22)
Unconditionally is a great word.
Gemma
(21:24)
Yeah, because that way as a team, like I'm thinking immediately of a team scenario, but you could apply this to any kind of situation.
(21:33)
But when that is active, and when that is nurtured and allowed and made space for within a team, people can bring anything to the table.
(21:44)
Mistakes can be aired and accepted and rectified.
(21:50)
You know, there becomes a lot more efficiency, trust, safety.
(21:55)
And when people feel safe in those environments, you know, it's a win-win.
(22:01)
You know?
Neil
(22:02)
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
(22:04)
There's two really, really powerful words you use there.
(22:08)
One's trust.
(22:09)
And the other one is safety.
(22:10)
I'll add psychological safety to that.
Gemma
(22:12)
Yeah.
Neil
(22:13)
So that's psychological to it.
(22:15)
And it's, yeah, I mean, it's talked about, and I've experienced it, but it's still for me quite rare.
(22:24)
But I can't say for every organisation in the world, but it's still, because now we're getting into the realm of culture.
Gemma
(22:29)
Mm, yes.
(22:32)
Yeah, I've, it also is quite rare for me too.
(22:37)
And I make, you know, big steps to ensure that I am that person within a team.
(22:48)
It's not always easy, but yeah, trying to have that presence when it's lacking is quite a hat to wear, you know?
(23:00)
So would you say that there's any gaps in your leadership at the moment that you are working on, nurturing, or looking to, like, bridge the gap in your own leadership?
(23:18)
I ask that question because a lot of people I'm speaking to at the moment are struggling to see themselves within leadership, within people of authority or leaders at the moment.
(23:37)
And sometimes we can connect with them best because we can be real about how we show up and what we're working on and, you know, not necessarily appearing from perfection.
(23:51)
Does that make sense?
Neil
(23:53)
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
(23:54)
It's interesting.
(23:55)
I've just had a call just before this podcast and we were talking about, like, the perception of and the fear of failing or being a failure or not performing, yeah, and the effects that that can have.
(24:11)
But going back to the original question is around what I'm moving towards.
(24:14)
So for me as a leader, for me personally, I'm often being someone who is operating in small teams or it's about the me and me being a personal leader for myself, but, like, being a bit of a lone wolf, Gemma, and realising now that the scale of what's required for the change that we need to see in the world is that it's moving from the me to the we.
(24:39)
Now, I have been collaborative, but it's, like, my leadership style and my ability now is to work in co-leadership with others, in collaboration.
(24:51)
And it's interesting when you just use the word authority, for some reason I've just had a bit of a reaction to it, which is information for me, because I've got this thing of, like, this authority being a hierarchy.
(25:02)
I don't know what it is, because it's interesting as I'm talking about
(25:04)
my leadership development has been around co-leadership, and I see that in my constellations
(25:10)
work as well, and where my skill set stops, another one begins, but working with other
(25:15)
leaders rather than managing or leading teams, it's, like, it's more flat and there's different
(25:21)
leaders operating together, and learning how that can work and how that operates.
(25:26)
So that's where I'm developing at the moment and actively seeking those opportunities out.
Gemma
(25:31)
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
(25:33)
Going from the I to the we.
(25:36)
I'm doing the same.
(25:38)
Oh yeah, me to the we.
(25:40)
That's even better, which is why this podcast exists, you know, because I'm doing the exact same.
(25:47)
Quite often I find people on similar lines of work, regardless of the modality, are, you know, we're working in silos a lot of the time and I see what you are saying, the impact and the reach and the effectiveness of becoming the we and moving into those spaces.
(26:09)
Yeah.
Neil
(26:11)
There's a particular person who I'll name who has been influential on my life and my leadership, which might be useful for people who might be listening to the podcast.
(26:22)
And his name is Otto Sharma.
(26:26)
So Otto Sharma is, he's German by birth.
(26:32)
But he is a professor at MIT in America.
(26:37)
But he has got this, this methodology and this framework called theory.
(26:42)
But it's systems based leadership.
(26:44)
And he talks about from the me to the we, from ego to eco.
(26:48)
And he's had a profound influence on my life.
(26:50)
So just some of the things we're talking about at this particular time, you maybe put it in the show notes or share, but Otto Sharma is a really, really important person to connect into and follow his work because he's really leading this space.
(27:03)
Yeah, really powerful.
Gemma
(27:04)
Yeah.
(27:05)
Wow.
(27:05)
Thanks for sharing that.
(27:08)
And so, you know how we were talking a minute ago about and authority, and I just want to rewind to that and the hierarchy.
(27:17)
And then you went like this with the flat.
(27:22)
Do you think that that leadership becoming less hierarchical is part of us reclaiming how we do and see leadership at the moment?
Neil
(27:36)
Oh, that's a big question.
(27:39)
That's a big question.
Gemma
(27:39)
Go with it where you want.
Neil
(27:42)
Okay, let me just feel into it.
(27:45)
Just feel what comes up for me.
(27:50)
Because it's only been inspired by certain modes of thinking.
(27:56)
And I suppose I'm being influenced by more indigenous forms of organising.
Gemma
(28:06)
Yeah.
Neil
(28:06)
And there's a book that was given to me, or maybe I was made aware of that I bought a copy.
(28:13)
So back in April, I was invited to Rotorua at the National Family Constellations Conference that was running there to run a workshop.
(28:21)
Choice.
(28:23)
Yeah, it was amazing.
(28:24)
But there was there was an Australian facilitator there.
(28:27)
And she'd been doing some work with this guy called Greg Campbell.
(28:31)
And he'd spent 30 years in the Pilbara.
(28:34)
It might have been the Kimberley region in Northwest Australia with the Aboriginal community.
(28:39)
And he wrote a book called The Great Reset.
(28:41)
And they're looking at more indigenous ways of organising and leadership.
(28:47)
And you know, you look at Native American or you look at Celtic, the traditional Celtic of our lands, of how tribes were were managed and how they say Native Americans or like in South America, how the how they're organised and how it's a lot more fluid and connected.
(29:04)
It's very emergent.
(29:06)
So like, you cannot control nature.
(29:10)
So you have like these looser structures, that there is some form of structure, but it's it's all like, it's more like a systems based, rather than a linear based.
(29:21)
And you work with what phenomenologically, that's a big word, phenomenologically arises in the moment and you respond to it in a very dynamic way.
(29:30)
I don't use the word agile because it's been done to death.
(29:33)
But like, yeah, they have to respond in a particular way.
(29:37)
Whereas if I think about like the military, which is also changing, interestingly, and I think of fire and emergency in New Zealand, I did some work where it's a very command and control model.
(29:47)
Now, where there's an event, where there's like a big fire, then it's definitely needed in that respect.
(29:52)
But in a general sense, yeah, I'm more interested in more indigenous forms of organising.
(29:57)
And I'm curious about how Maori.
Neil
(0:00)
in a particular way, whereas if I think about like the military, which is also changing interestingly
(0:06)
and I think of fire and emergency in New Zealand too, I did some work where it's a very command
(0:11)
and control model, not where there's an event where there's like a big fire, then it's definitely
(0:15)
needed in that respect, but in a general sense, yeah, I'm more interested in more indigenous
(0:20)
forms of organising and I'm curious about how, how Maori would, would do that in a more traditional
(0:26)
sense, which I'm not aware of.
Gemma
(0:29)
Yeah, yeah, I know.
(0:30)
I'm, I'm really interested in
(0:34)
re-indigenisation as a concept, as a way of living and being and I, yeah, I've, just to
(0:44)
rift a bit on, on that aspect because, yeah, it's a, it's a big theme in my life at the moment
(0:53)
where I am, you know, noticing the ways in which I've
(1:01)
been raised and any kind of like conditioning that's kind of come up and how I've gravitated
(1:10)
towards indigenous cultures, wherever I've been, Australia, here in New Zealand, obviously,
(1:19)
and learning and connecting to those ways of the cult, of the country that I'm in,
(1:27)
the First Nations culture of any country I'm in, and it actually points me back to my own
(1:33)
in terms of the Celtic lineage because, you know, if I'm learning about the Maramataka in Maori with
(1:42)
the lunar calendar or whatever, and then actually I'm pointed out,
(1:49)
pointed back to, well, that existed in our lands long before any other concept came in of like
(1:58)
the different calendars, you know, so I'm interested to know just briefly, if you don't
(2:04)
mind about like where, because I noticed, I think it was something you shared recently about a
(2:11)
pilgrimage that you went back to Ireland and you reconnected in that way, so is there anything that
(2:19)
you feel kind of nudged to share about that experience or are the original ways of our lands
(2:30)
in terms of leadership?
Neil
(2:33)
Yeah, it's a really, it's an excellent question because it also
(2:37)
connects me back to New Zealand, so I've got a little story I can tell you,
(2:43)
because it's really interesting where you're at in yourself, Gemma, and I wasn't aware of this,
(2:48)
what you're sharing, and it's really got me curious, so when I moved to New Zealand,
(2:56)
I moved to New Zealand in 2014, 2016 there was the Social Enterprise World Conference,
(3:02)
it just happened to be in Christchurch, so I went, and it was amazing, and I got chatting to
(3:11)
a young Maori guy, he must have been 19, 20, and we were just sharing different ideas, and I was like,
(3:18)
tell me more, like I love to learn about like the culture, and like the philosophy, and the
(3:23)
spirituality, and the connection to land, yeah, and he went, yeah, Neil, that's great, and I really
(3:30)
respect you for wanting to know that, but what's yours?
(3:35)
Like, what's yours, Faka Papa?
Gemma
(3:36)
I've had the same.
Neil
(3:38)
Where's your waka?
(3:39)
Where's that?
(3:40)
And I was like, I don't know, and I knew I had ancestry in
(3:45)
Ireland, so that set me on a, that set me on a journey, and that's where Constellations has
(3:52)
also come in as well, so fast forward, that was 2016, so fast forward to 2025, so when I moved
(3:59)
back, for family reasons, I'm moving back to New Zealand, thank, thankfully, yeah, I'm really
(4:07)
I'm coming back the end of the year, starting next year,
(4:12)
but like, when I first went back in 2021, I always said that if I ever, because it was never
(4:17)
intended to go back, if I ever go back to the UK, for whatever reason, I will go really deep into
(4:23)
my ancestry, where I came from, the old ways, and I have done so, the four years I've been back,
(4:31)
probably a year of those four years has been spent in Ireland, and it's not just Ireland,
(4:38)
because I've also, when I've done my DNA, I've got, like, Scottish, and I've got Irish, and I've
(4:44)
got Welsh, so there's Celtic blood running through my veins, yeah, similar, and so what's really
(4:51)
fascinating, is what I've found, is that when you set foot on that land, something in you comes alive,
(4:57)
like, something in your cellular memory, in your DNA, like, there's a remembering, and you talk
(5:02)
about, like, reclamation, there's a reclamation, and there's a remembering, and through the
(5:07)
remembering, it's like, you're almost, it sounds a little bit, maybe, woo-woo, for maybe people who
(5:13)
are maybe not familiar, but you start to get, like, almost, like, downloads, and remembering of, like,
(5:18)
things, and, like, synchronicity starts happening, like, Ireland, when I go to Ireland, like, it's
(5:23)
magical what unfolds, the connections that I make, the knowledge that I learn, the people that I meet,
(5:29)
how I feel on the land, it's like, it's like a, like, a flower blossom, it's profound, so
(5:37)
what it's led me to, is, okay, you've got ancient culture, you've got Neolithic culture, and we've
(5:42)
got all these stone circles, and Neolithic tomb, you know, these are five, six thousand years old,
(5:49)
in the UK, Joanna, it's like, yeah, famous ones, like, Stonehenge, it's crazy, and you can go to
(5:54)
these places, and then, I just think they're really powerful, but, like, part of this Celtic culture,
(6:00)
what you talked about, I've got a belief, Gemma, is that, like, Celtic culture come from Central
(6:08)
Europe, Jeremy, there was a, there was a migration, so you get, like, a lot of Celtic cultures, you've
(6:12)
got, like, the traditional ones, where you've got, like, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Cornwall, then you've
(6:19)
got Brittany in France, and then you've got, like, Galicia in Spain, and Portugal, so you've still got,
(6:24)
like, Celtic influence in Ireland, but then, when the Romans invaded, in around 68 AD,
(6:32)
you know, they wiped out Celtic culture, like, there's, in Anglesey, in Wales, it was the last
(6:39)
stronghold of the Druids, so all the priestly class, all the knowledge, and all the culture was held
(6:45)
in Anglesey, and the Romans came and wiped it all out, so you could argue, like, that split, that loss
(6:51)
happened at that particular point, and we can still see the effects of Romanized culture in the Western
(6:57)
world to this day, so that's why, like, I've gone back to that period, pre-Roman, to reconnect into those
(7:03)
ways, and so I did a pilgrimage.
Gemma
(7:07)
Wow.
Neil
(7:08)
From, from Liverpool, I walked from Liverpool
(7:12)
to Anglesey, it was 90 miles, took me five days, and I arrived in time for summer solstice,
(7:19)
because in Anglesey, it's a place called Brinkithley Day, and it's a 5,500 year old,
(7:27)
almost like it's a tomb, and the way it's constructed, when the sun rises on the summer
(7:31)
solstice, the sun comes right through into the passage, and so walking there, as a way, I'm getting
(7:38)
goosebumps, as I'm talking about this, to walk there, I arrived on the Friday night, the summer solstice
(7:44)
on the Saturday morning, I arrived, it was stunning, woke up in the morning, a quarter to four, and there was
(7:51)
a modern form of Druidry, there was Druids everywhere, all in gowns, and there was a big
(7:55)
ceremony, and there's, there was about 100 people there, of all people who were looking to reclaim
(8:02)
the culture that was lost, the Celtic culture, and so there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a
(8:07)
renaissance, Gemma, so that's why I wanted to tell you this, to share the story, because that's very
(8:11)
much where I am at, and I feel so motivated, it's like reclaiming our ways from our lands, because
(8:17)
we've been almost like dispossessed, it's a shame for the fact that we're English, or Scottish, or
(8:24)
Welsh, or Irish, through colonisation, so it's like, so when we reclaim those old ways, we're also
(8:30)
reclaiming ourselves, and when we reclaim ourselves, we become more sovereign, and we have more agency,
(8:36)
and that's what I'm really feeling as a leader, is by stepping into this, I feel really strong, Gemma,
(8:41)
in, in my stance, where I stand, and I can trace that back to that young Maori kid in 2016.
Gemma
(8:49)
Good on him.
Neil
(8:50)
Being provocative, and for me to be able to like, not be able to respond, so thank you for letting me share that, because I just really feel.
Gemma
(8:56)
No, thank you.
Neil
(8:58)
Strong when I share it, because it's such a powerful story, and there's been many teachers who've come along the way, both Maori, and back in my land, like in America, you know, there's been really good teachers that have helped support me through this journey, you know.
Gemma
(9:13)
Yeah, and what leadership from that young Maori dude, 19, did you say?
Neil
(9:19)
He was 19.
Gemma
(9:20)
Yeah, love that.
Neil
(9:22)
He had mana, he had mana, and I felt it.
Gemma
(9:25)
Yeah.
Neil
(9:25)
So I want to touch on just one more thing, because I'm doing a lot of talking, and I'm stealing a lot of oxygen, but it's just an important thing to note when we talk about leaders.
(9:33)
My belief, and my experience, and I'd like to be proven wrong, or shown another way, but when we talk about leadership, we've lost our traditional elders within our Western industrialised society.
(9:46)
Now the elders were the leaders who passed down the knowledge, through rites of passage, both men and women, that then they became the leaders, and they carried the torch of the knowledge, and the wisdom, and the power, and that has been severed for me in Western culture, and we've got people in the general population floundering and lost, and not in the power because of it.
(10:09)
Does that make sense?
Gemma
(10:10)
Yes.
Neil
(10:11)
Does that resonate with you?
Gemma
(10:12)
Really does, yeah.
(10:13)
Yeah, and I think...
Neil
(10:14)
Do you want to say a little bit more about that?
Gemma
(10:17)
Sorry?
Neil
(10:18)
Do you want to say a little bit more about that from your perspective?
Gemma
(10:21)
Yeah, I was just going to touch on the fact that how in a lot of Western cultures at the moment, all these tools, wonderful tools that exist to the personal development world, that is popping off left, right, and centre for a good reason, because people are searching, people are looking for something, and I believe the root of that is what you just touched on.
(10:54)
It's reclaiming the lineage, reconnecting to people of a similar journey, like you and I, because I also didn't know the depths of what you were exploring as well, but when we are on that journey, or when we are standing on those lands and reconnecting to what it means to be Celtic or whatever, that in itself is a powerful leadership move.
(11:29)
That in itself makes us whole.
(11:34)
So as much as a lot of these tools that are available, which I'm very grateful for, they've all pointed me back to this.
(11:44)
Awesome.
(11:46)
Yeah, it really is awesome, and it's a bit of a journey, hey, you know?
Neil
(11:56)
It's the work, Gemma, it's the work.
(12:01)
It's not for the faint-hearted, it takes courage, and, but it's a non-negotiable, and it has to happen.
Gemma
(12:09)
Yeah.
Neil
(12:10)
And then once you start taking those steps, the door closes behind you, and you can't go back, and you've got to continue, and this is, again, it's that leadership, it's so important.
Gemma
(12:22)
Yeah, I had a similar experience here,
(12:25)
and God, I love the Māori thing, and I was learning,
(12:33)
I was working in a role up in Te Awaroa, Helensville, in social services, and we were
(12:41)
learning Te Reo Māori, and my teacher, my kaiko at the time said, look at Gemma, it's wonderful
(12:50)
that you are so driven to learn our language, you know, while you're on these lands, while you call
(13:00)
this home, while you're working with our people.
(13:03)
And he was like, but do you know your own?
(13:07)
And my chest just, like, my heart sunk, and I was just like, oh, God, no, I don't.
(13:17)
And from then on, I have, and I'm still learning Te Reo Māori, because I'm here, right, you know, this is where I call home at the moment, but I went on a journey.
(13:31)
I think it was last, yeah, maybe 18 months ago,
(13:35)
I went back to Scotland for about five months, and my dad and I went on a bit of a pilgrimage
(13:43)
to the Outer Hebrides and the West Coast, because I'm of Campbell, Mackellar,
(13:50)
whakapapa, like, lineage, and so we went via our ancestral lands to the Outer Hebrides, and,
(13:59)
you know, out there, they are speaking Gaelic, like, you know, and one lady was appalled that I
(14:08)
was trying to order my coffee in English, you know, and was, like, looking at me, because she
(14:15)
could tell I was Scottish, and I just felt this moment of know where you are, you know, learn this,
(14:24)
this, these people are out here speaking Gaelic and keeping it alive, you know, and from then on,
(14:32)
I joined Duolingo and started to learn Gaelic, which I can read quite well.
(14:38)
I'm not very good at speaking at the moment, but it just got me thinking about how if we don't take responsibility while we're living and breathing now to reconnect and reclaim parts of our culture that really need us, then we will lose it.
(14:56)
So, I see it as much as we need to take ownership for the way things are and do something about it.
(15:06)
So, yeah, I thought I'd just share that wee story, since we're sharing stories.
Neil
(15:10)
No, it's really beautiful, and I'm going to ask you a couple more questions.
(15:14)
I don't want to flip it, I feel like I'm interviewing you, but it's like.
Gemma
(15:16)
No, no, go for it, go where it needs to go.
Neil
(15:18)
Because it's really important, as you two, you touched on, you've said some great words, and I just want to just pull on them a little bit, but, like, as a leader, you know, it's responsibility.
(15:29)
Responsibility is keen, knowing that you've got agency and to be able to be responsible, to be and to act.
(15:38)
It's fascinating you're talking about the outdoor activities, because I'm going to Skye, Lewis and Harris at the start of September, part of my own journey up to those parts, and like you say, the language, I mean, let's just go back, that landscape up there is absolutely mind-blowing.
(15:57)
People don't realise about the activities, as you know.
(16:01)
So, to be able to speak the language now, I've spent a lot of time in
(16:04)
Ireland, and there's an amazing man called Mancon McGann, who is like a national treasure, who's
(16:10)
really at the forefront of this cultural renaissance of, he's got a book called 32 Words
(16:15)
of Field, and it's how, like, the Gaelic language has got so much more expression to it, and how it's
(16:22)
interlinked with, like, customs and being able to read the land.
(16:25)
How fascinating that you had to, I don't mean you had to, but you chose to go to New Zealand, and it was only by being in New Zealand that you were able to reconnect out there, or let's call it, you were able to then be catalysed to reconnect back to Scotland.
(16:41)
100%.
(16:42)
How interesting.
Gemma
(16:44)
Yeah, there's something here that does that, there's
(16:47)
something here on these lands that does that to people, especially also here in Tahuna, like
(16:54)
the people that gravitate towards living down here in Queenstown,
(17:02)
yeah, there's, I don't know if I've quite got the words for it, but something transformational,
(17:11)
yeah, people are here for a reason, you know, and quite quickly, once that reason is met,
(17:21)
move on.
(17:22)
That's why it's so transient.
(17:23)
I mean, it's transient because of tourism, sure, but it's transient in a different way, on a deeper level, you know, which I think is more of a feeling thing for me.
(17:37)
Yeah, but there's something that happens down here, you know, a little end of the world.
Neil
(17:43)
But I want to build on a little bit, because there'll be people who'll be listening to this who know me here in the UK, and I lived in Queens, where you are, I lived in Queenstown for a year.
(17:52)
It's by accident, pure or not so, that I found myself in Queenstown, that's a whole other remarkable story to echo with.
(17:59)
But you're right, there was a real, I mean, I'd argue that Wanaka, which is the next town across, is similar, is that people used to talk about the Remarkables, which is the mountain range in Queenstown.
(18:13)
There's just something energetic, maybe in the rocks or in the crystals of the mountains, that there's an energy.
(18:21)
And because when I lived there during COVID, there was hardly any tourism, it meant there was more ability to be able to feel the land, because it's not so overrun and busy with jets, and it was so busy.
(18:34)
And you're right, there's something really powerful.
(18:37)
And then when you go down to Glenorchy, and then down to Paradise, man, and the way that the geography is, facilitates something.
(18:47)
And don't forget, I mean, that people don't realise as well, that New Zealand, the landmass is formed from two tectonic plates rubbing together, that is constantly in motion.
(18:56)
I mean, how many earthquakes?
(18:58)
If you go onto GeoNet, which is the app.
Gemma
(19:00)
It rubbed together the other night.
(19:02)
We were in a tiny house, and we were like this.
Neil
(19:06)
There's shakes every day, but that has a geopathic, a creating energy, like facilitates transformation.
(19:13)
But oh God, I'm just getting excited, because I know that I'm ready to, yeah, I'm looking forward to coming back.
(19:18)
Queenstown is a special place to call home.
Gemma
(19:21)
It really is.
(19:22)
Yeah.
(19:22)
And it was just interesting, because after the little shake that we had the other day, I mean, it was quite a jolt, actually.
(19:31)
It wasn't a shake.
(19:33)
Very short and sharp.
(19:34)
And a lot of people after that, the next day, when I was out in the community, were like, oh, did you feel last night?
(19:42)
Well, I heard it before I felt it, you know.
(19:46)
But a lot of people said to me, oh, I felt like we needed a good shake up.
(19:50)
You know, we needed, because a lot's gone, a lot's happened in this community in the last four months.
(19:59)
Especially in the Māori community, we've had quite a bit of loss.
(20:03)
And it just felt like a lot of people were saying, oh, yeah, we need to do this, you know.
(20:11)
And that was connected to the jolt we had the other night and being like, oh, maybe, you know, that was us getting a bit of the shake up we need, you know, without it being disastrous.
(20:25)
It was like a wake up, you know, like, let's change the vibe kind of thing.
(20:33)
But yeah, it's interesting how we can disregard what the whenua, what the land is telling us.
(20:42)
And I just felt the next day after that, we got a bit of a reconnection of what that could mean and what that could be doing for us, you know, because we often think that we're it and we've got all the power and the control, but we really don't, you know.
Neil
(21:01)
Yeah, it's a really, that's a really, it's a really useful perception, Gemma, of what you've just said there, you know, and that comes very naturally to the likes of Māori about orientating yourself to the land and the land actually speaking and being able to receive those messages and being able to interpret meaning from that.
(21:18)
Because like, I remember in Wellington back in 2016, there was a 7.5 earthquake.
(21:23)
And when your whole house is almost coming down for 90 seconds, you realise that you're a very small part of sort of much bigger.
(21:34)
So it's really humbling.
Gemma
(21:35)
Yeah.
(21:37)
And just while we're talking about jolts and earthquakes, and I'm kind of like, oh, unshakeable leader, how funny is that, you know?
(21:51)
So I don't know if we've really discussed the concept of, I don't think I've discussed it with you really in depth about where I'm going with the unshakeable leader and what it means.
(22:05)
But really, in a nutshell, from my perspective, but I always like to know what the guests and who I'm interviewing and who I'm speaking to, what comes up for them when I talk about it.
(22:17)
From my perspective, the unshakeable leader concept was born from the idea of being able to intervene on ourselves when things are going in a direction that perhaps isn't aligned with where we want to go, or we're seeing things within how we operate.
(22:47)
And we want to redirect that.
(22:51)
So it's taking the lead on our leadership, if you know what I mean.
(22:54)
And that comes from things that are prevalent at the moment, burnout, all the stuff, the hurdles that are ineffective, but how can we, one, notice them and act, do something about it?
(23:12)
And it comes from my experience of having burnt out quite a few times and noticing where I didn't get into my communication, didn't set boundaries, didn't know how to regulate my nervous system.
(23:26)
You know, all the things that are leadership skills that if we develop, we can become unshakeable.
(23:33)
And it's not from a stance of we've to be perfect leaders, but how can we be a bit more robust in how we operate personally and professionally?
(23:47)
So my question really for you is, what does an unshakeable leader mean to you?
(23:55)
And how is it showing up?
(23:56)
How is being an unshakeable leader, which I've told you you are, because you're here, number three, how does that show up for you?
Neil
(24:06)
Well, I'm going to build on some of the things that you just shared, what you were saying about nervous system regulation.
(24:13)
I often say to my clients we will work with is that if there's two things, and we can put it in the context of leadership, there's two things that will change your life right now, simple but not easy, setting clear boundaries with yourself internally and with others and saying no more without feeling guilt or shame.
(24:34)
Just doing those two things have a profound effect on people's lives like profound.
(24:40)
So for me as a leader, like building on what you said, those two things are massive.
(24:44)
Another two things which I'll talk about, which I'll touch on for me building on what you said, was self cultivating self awareness of oneself, being in community.
(24:58)
So you need a tribe like you can that like I said before, being a bit of a lone wolf, we need to be in community.
Gemma
(25:07)
Yeah.
Neil
(25:07)
And what I mean by that is like, by being in community with other people who we trust, who are other leaders, who are also doing work on themselves, are also showing up, you can orientate yourself to yourself through being with other people who also will hold you accountable.
(25:26)
Now we can hold ourselves to account as well.
Gemma
(25:29)
But again, not as good as how other people can.
Neil
(25:33)
No, but that's why it's going from the me being a more of the way.
(25:38)
So how we are individual within a community.
(25:41)
Now, I don't mean a community like, you know, and Queenstown Hill community or like France and I don't mean that type of communities, but a community of practitioners and leaders who are trustworthy.
(25:52)
It's like a brains trust, who can mirror you back at you support you, you can trust.
(25:58)
So that's what I do in terms of building on top of what you already said about like nervous system regulation.
(26:03)
We need to be together.
Gemma
(26:07)
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Neil
(26:09)
Make sense.
(26:10)
Yeah, you can say team, but like collaborators.
Gemma
(26:13)
Yeah, and people who, who feel like minded and really listen and understand of what needs you're asking for others to help you meet or meet for you, you know, in community.
Neil
(26:33)
Thank you for the question.
(26:34)
Yeah, thank you for this question, because it's, it's, it's something just dropped for me.
(26:39)
And in my, some of some of the things I've been thinking about, just a great, really strong feeling just dropped into my body.
(26:47)
Thank you.
Gemma
(26:47)
Good.
(26:48)
You're welcome.
(26:50)
So if people walk away with one thing, I mean, I always say people, maybe I need to change this question, actually, because people walk away with so many things from these episodes and these conversations.
(27:03)
But if people were to walk away with one thing from your story, what would you want them to take away?
Neil
(27:12)
Learn how to set clear boundaries and understand where you're not setting clear boundaries, where that root of that comes from within your family system.
Gemma
(27:21)
Yes.
(27:22)
Love that.
(27:24)
Yeah.
(27:25)
Powerful.
Neil
(27:26)
Just start there.
(27:27)
Start there.
(27:28)
And you start there.
(27:30)
So it's like that point of most leverage from if you pull the lever, what's going to give you the most leverage and that'd be for me to be Hmm.
Gemma
(27:41)
Yeah.
(27:42)
So find where the boundaries are needed and implement them via family constellations.
Neil
(27:51)
Yeah.
(27:51)
Well, not the family constellations, but find out what put them in place, but then find out where the root of those, where the root is.
(27:58)
Yeah.
Gemma
(27:59)
Yeah.
(28:00)
Love that.
(28:02)
So where can people find you, Neil, if they want to connect with you or learn more about who you are and what you do?
(28:11)
Is there somewhere we can direct people to?
Neil
(28:15)
Yeah.
(28:15)
Well, you maybe send it, put in the show notes on all social media platforms, the main ones, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn.
(28:22)
I post a lot of content on Facebook and Instagram.
(28:26)
We can find about some of my philosophy, some ideas around constellations, work, change, transformation.
(28:32)
So I'll post a lot and share a lot of content where my workshops are.
(28:36)
I've actually got a four week online workshop, a cohort that's happening in August that people might be interested in that could still, I've actually got someone from New Zealand coming on it already.
(28:47)
So it's your story, it may be an early morning, but there'll be, there'll be maybe something for people to, to join in the Southern Hemisphere.
(28:54)
So I'll give you all of it.
Gemma
(28:56)
So are you just Neil Meakin on those platforms or?
(29:02)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(29:04)
And you're, sorry, you're, what was the name of your business?
Neil
(29:11)
The Pool of Life.
Gemma
(29:13)
Yeah.
(29:13)
The Pool of Life.
(29:14)
I love that.
Neil
(29:17)
So that's based on, it's based on a dream that a famous psychologist, Carl Jung, J-U-N-G, he's a protege of Sigmund Freud.
(29:26)
He had a dream about Liverpool and pictured my city, my birth.
(29:30)
He said, Liverpool is the pool of life.
(29:32)
So that's influenced.
Gemma
(29:35)
Oh wow, that's beautiful.
Neil
(29:37)
Yeah, yeah.
Gemma
(29:38)
Yeah.
(29:39)
Cool.
(29:39)
Well, thanks so much for taking the time to join us today.
(29:44)
It's been absolutely amazing to just, yes, ask you the questions, but also go with where the conversation was going and where you needed to go.
(29:54)
So yeah, I really appreciate your flexibility with just going with the flow.